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New Template Balancing/Mahler

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Stephen Limbaugh, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. #1 Stephen Limbaugh, Dec 13, 2020
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  2. #2 Doug Gibson, Dec 13, 2020
    Damn, that is pretty slick!

    Dare I ask how long that took to program?

    (Disclaimer with the following comments: I gave up using samples years ago. I only use Noteperformer. So I am a "knob")


    Since you are (I presume) asking for critique;

    It's interesting you used the phrase "sticking out" as if I had to offer a criticism (Please know I think you did a fabulous job) it that your version almost has a limiter
    on it versus the YouTube version of the piece I clicked on to compare. I think it is most successful until the woodwinds enter. However when we get to about 1:10 into it
    the violins don't seem very expressive. This is most exposed at the very end 2:04 versus the real performance seems rather dull.


    I think you did a fabulous job and it might be very unfair to simply say it doesn't sound like the live version. It's very, very, very good.


    I am attaching the link to the video I gave a listen to for an A/B comparison. Of course your taste might differ to the interpretation I am linking.
    Start at 1;37

     
    Stephen Limbaugh likes this.
  3. #3 Stephen Limbaugh, Dec 13, 2020
    Hi Doug thanks for the comments!

    The Youtube link you posted said it is not available in my country— what is the name of the performance? I can probably track it down.

    Performing this was actually not too much of a slog. Took two days because I am trying to make sure a forte flute doesn’t over power forte horn... or that the trumpets don’t sound too close... stuff like that. But gun-to-my-head I could get this result in ~5 hours (with my template set up! ).

    Agreed on the 1st violins... this may mean I need to drop the rest of the ensemble overall in the mix.

    What was sounding off to you about the woodwinds? And also, at 2:04 it is brass, perc, and bassoons only — what sounded off there?
     
  4. #4 Doug Gibson, Dec 14, 2020
    Oh. Ok.

    I looked it back up.

    Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection" (Lucerne Festival Orchestra, Claudio Abbado)

    The channel was EuroArtsChannel


    Probably most effective to just let you A/B compare them. As the old saying goes "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture".

    I certainly don't want to eave you thinking something was "off" in the sense mistakes or sounding sloppy. Far from it. What you did sounds great.

    I meant that at 2:04 we start to get the build up and in the live version the hair on the back of my neck (which also goes down my back to my butt crack) starts to stand up.

    The samples feel like a "limiter" or compressor is on them and we aren't getting the full resonance/tension etc.

    I wish I knew more about samples to give you more specifics.

    You know...... it's like a story I heard about Ravel describing orchestration: It's not the "sound", it's the sound around the sound.


    Let me know if you have any difficulty in finding the performance, and if so, I can rip it for you to hear.
     
  5. #5 Stephen Limbaugh, Dec 14, 2020
    Ah yes, that performance is on Vimeo. :)

    There are a _lot_ of bus plugins on it currently. I'll take them off and see how close I can get it.
     
  6. #6 Gregory D. Moore, Dec 14, 2020
    Stephen, while its a great mockup, what sounds out instantly for me is the fact that you're using ensemble patches rather than hearing 50 different players. This is particularly apparent during the expressive dynamic changes. Current sample technology does not have a good solution to this problem. However, sometimes mixing a few different patches together can create a more convincing illusion. Nice choice for a mockup too!
     
    Stephen Limbaugh likes this.
  7. #7 Alexander Schiborr, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
    Hey Stephen,

    Good job here. Definitely for me it sounds very good. In regards of the balancing I think you did also a great job. Surerly, not sure how far you want to go (also Doug and Gregory pointed out some very useful information), I would just go from that version and start testing how your own ideas can be created and if you need further adjustments. The hard part is to get that rich dynamics from very very quite parts to this extremely loud fortissimo parts.

    Mahler Symphonies are so famous and known for their incredible dynamics, micro swells and expressive performance which obviously is very very hard (.. impossible) to get right with samples. However, as I say: I don´t think that we are here to replace a live orchestra with samples but to have something at home which makes a good impression of the live orchestra so that you can write some music which gives you a solid interpretation of what it would sound like with a real orchestra.

    My only advise and I am pretty sure you are doing it allready: Use a good reference recording or live performance that helps you to balance out the sections and to learn how the orchestra performs. One of these limitation which I find all the time fighthing is the expression of samples vs. live. Live players and section can perform parts with so much feeling and expression..there is almost no chance to get that right with samples. Especially romantic music and Mahler in specific has that sort of "emotion and goosebumpy" performance where you can literally hear the electricity in the air when its completely silent.

    I had a time where I listened to the 2nd Symphony almost everyday and mostly the first movement..man, it is soo good. (My dad played Mahler a lot in the 80s when I was kid). The Claudio Abbado version is soo good and always gives me the chills.

    Having said that, I am not sure what your goals are in regards of doing these types of mockups, however keep on experimenting and yeah, just have fun with creating those mockups.

    I definitely find it great to see people understaking such challenge. Have fun messing around with it and good luck. Looking forward to more of these sample cooking experiments! \m/
     
    Simon Pajak and Stephen Limbaugh like this.
  8. #8 Stephen Limbaugh, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
    Ok -- here is a different bounce... no compression, limiter and all that other shit. Just the samples with some tweaks to match Abbado.




    If nobody hears any instruments not in the right place in the room, or volume balances that seem off not due to programming, I'll probably commit to it and start working. ;)
     
  9. #9 Alexander Schiborr, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
    Doesnt make much of a big difference to me.
     
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