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How would you voice that shit ?

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Sylvain Provenzano, Mar 4, 2018.

  1. Capture.PNG

    Assuming you want long chords played by strings with these top notes as melody, how would you voice it in closed/open voicing ? The first thing that comes for me is to play root notes as bass notes then play complete parallel movements for the first 3 chords. Is it legit ? Is there a better version of it ?
     
  2. You have an easy descending bass line there: C, B, A, G, F, E, G. Or you could use D as the bass for the last chord to continue the pattern if it fit with the overall piece.
     
  3. #3 Bradley Boone, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
    Here's two quick ones.
    voicings1.png
    voicing2.png

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. That's what I thought at second sight but it sounds different. The descending bass sounds more sentimental (to my profane ears) and the usage of root notes is more 'affirmative'. Let's say it's a heroic theme and it's followed by the same melody and harmony but the second time, the dominant chord carries more 'power'. Maybe I should choose a different 'dominant' chord for the first pass, or maybe just a different bass note will do the job, I don't know... the more I try things the more I get doubts.

    I think what I'm looking for is in your example 1. I would like to understand why you chose to play unissons. Why 3 notes in the first bar and five in the second bar, and four in the sixth bar ? Is there a rule of thumb I could apply ?

    Btw, thanks for the audio examples, really helpful.
     
  5. First, you miscounted the number of voices per bar. m1-4v, m2-5v, m3-5v, m4-5v, m5-5v, m6-4v, m7&8-5v. Maybe the mistake is because the contrabass sounds one octave lower than the written pitch.

    Well, here's my thought process behind making the voicings.

    You wrote a top line for a string section (I guessed full ensemble, not quartet).
    You wrote a tempo and harmonic progression, so I decided not to mess with those.
    You also asked for "long chords."

    With those "parameters" I made three assumptions-
    1) just arco pads
    2) "long chords" so use common tones when possible
    3) leave the melody in the register you wrote.

    I chose notes that did not have to be played on open strings, so you could use vibrato to warm the sound if that's what you want (like low G on violin, or low C on cello will be senza vibrato, unless you ask them to de-tune their instrument).
    As for the unison question, there are only two unisons in example #1 (the violins in measure 1 and the cello and viola in measure 6).
    For the 2nd violin, I chose to avoid the low G string (vibrato), or write above your melody line.
    For the cello/viola unison (measure 6), it is was just a matter of taste, but I chose not to write an E in the cello because tripling the 3rd of a 5 voice grouping is problematic to balance/tune. In example #2 above, I basically played the melody in octaves between the 1st violin and cello, so I moved the bass to avoid tripling the 3rd. Also, the violas and basses are practically in octaves in example #2.

    There are certainly many, many more ways to voice this passage (parallel/planing, the descending bass line Tack mention, descending 4ths in the bass (C/G/A/E/F/C/G/G), etc.), so keep exploring until you find what you like.

    Glad the audio examples helped.
     
  6. #6 Aaron Venture, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
    Here's a quick play on an ensemble patch:



    upload_2018-3-4_17-23-6.png

    You can do this in a lot of ways, really. I didn't play close to the melody range so as to have it stand out a bit more.

    As for instrument specific voicings, you can do it in a number of ways. Your main concerns are thickness and texture. You can divisi notes somewhere, but they'll have a different texture (fewer instruments) and you'll have to compensate with dynamics.
     
  7. If I'm not wrong, the first bar of example 1 has also a unisson between cello and viola, but maybe you wanted to write a G and not a E for the viola.

    Your assumptions were good but since you enumerated them, I'm curious...
    How would have you write it for a quartet ?
    If it was short notes playing a rythmical pattern (not the top line wich is melody) the rule of keeping common tones would have been different ?

    Your interesting remark about vibrato brings me two questions :
    Why did you not write a divisi to keep 5 voices ?
    If it was in D instead of C would you have started with 5 voices ?

    Last but not least
    At bar 6 you could have written a C for the cello but you chose to write a G in unisson with the viola. Why ?

    Same type of question :
    In your example 1, the first 3 chords are completely parallels except you didn't write B2 in your second chord. Why ?

    Bonus questions :
    Is this shit is ok ? What is good ? What is not ?
    Capture.PNG

    What motivate your choices for thickness, texture and bass note ?
     
  8. I didn't like how it sounded when I played it. That's it. Thickness and texture depend on what I'm trying to express. As for the bass note, I changed the F to A in the second F chord simply to keep it diverse - it also allowed me to let in some space in the F2 area and thicken up the low end. Contrast. I like it better this way as opposed to simply thickening up low end on top of it (in this context).
     
  9. Good catch - yes I meant for the viola to be a G (like example #2). I reuploaded the picture and soundcloud file.
    Working with triads only (no 7ths or other extensions), you still have the ability to do double stops (especially at this speed), but I will think about scoring out an example. You lose just the "bass" voice, but everything else can be covered pretty much as is. I would probably make a hybrid of the existing cello/bass voices of one of the examples above.
    That would be totally fine. I don't think that you necessarily "need" to use 5 independent pitches because you have 5 independent voices.
    I don't think this is vibrato related, but the above comment about not necessarily matching 5 pitches with 5 parts is valid in all of the transpositions. I would probably leave it the same, but it would allow the 2nd violin to play the low A on the G string with vibrato (so that could work). Basically, I just made 2 decisions, not to move the melody higher to create more vertical room, and not to cross voices (cello over viola, or viola over 2nd violin). As far as D vs Cmajor, I am ambivalent when they are that closely related (just a major second apart). Obviously, if the keys are much further apart, then you need to revisit the voicings because of the range of instruments and the timbre choices. I do this a fair amount in my day job moving keys to arrangements for vocalists. The worst case is a tritone away.
    The C in the cello would sound great, and would close the distance with the bass and make the texture thicker. It would also double the root of the chord, which is a good thing in 5-part writing. I can upload Example 1 with the cello change if you'd like to hear it. Like I mentioned at the outset, these were just 2 quick sketches to illustrate some voicing methods. The choice of chord inversions (like a G/D or a C/E) really affect the stability of a chord. So your earlier comments about root position notes being more "affirmative" is spot on.
    I didn't mention it in an earlier comment, but these voicing considerations come out of an understanding of music theory, which is in turn some academic's way of explaining a common practice developed by effective/popular composers. They aren't hard and fast rules, and can certainly be broken. I think an understanding of "common practice" voice leading/counterpoint is equivalent to studying cuisine or comedy. You understand the theoretical "rules," and set up expectations, then put your own take on it and subvert or reinforce the audiences' expectations.

    I think it is fine. The good stuff, no low closed position triads below B (that range is muddy sounding if you voice closed position chords), it is a variation on my 5-voice examples, but with root position chords and an additional 6th-voice.
    What I would consider adding to it is more contrary motion related to the melody line, and more oblique motion in the inner parts (your 2nd violin part is a good example of oblique writing). When everything moves in parallel in root position, it kind of all has the same character. Because the melody note is largely playing the root of the chord, that necessarily means the bass voice needs to play inversions if you want contrary motion. Again, writing in parallel/planing style is totally fine if that is the sound you want to hear.

    Thanks for the questions and the corrections to my earlier example.
     
  10. Hey! I know this guy!!!! ^ :D

    I guess I'd better say something helpful now. How about this: start with the outer voices. It's just slow moving blocks of chords (you might even say...first species?) so only move in parallel motion on 3rds and 6ths (and their octave equivalents) and otherwise stick to contrary motion. Once you've done that, then I'll bet the first things you'd reach for would feel a bit more interesting.
     
  11. Hey Brian! I saw you on here. (Better say something helpful!)
    Here's a quartet version in D. Some contrary motion, some oblique in violin2, and some root position chords at the start and final cadence. It has some of the 3rds and 6ths Brian mentioned
    voicings3.png
     
  12. No not really. Everyone has given really good advice. However....... You are not really looking to write something contrapuntal.

    No matter what you do we are going to hear this as "unified harmony". Unless you begin heading down the path Bradley is suggesting, and then
    some contrapuntal aspects will begin to emerge.

    Let me give you the "bullet point" version of what you are missing for what you are trying to do. (In reference to your Bonus question and that score)
    • The strongest voicing for a triad in root position will be (from bass note up) Root- 5th - 3rd (the 3rd being a 6th above the 5th)
    • Delete the octave doublings of the root that you have in the bass clef. The bass, and the voicing mentioned above are going to fill in that pitch.
    • Point 2b: Don't be an asshole and write 6 note chords for 5 staves. Not yet. Learn the basics first then get more complex.
    • The more direct parallel the writing the more you can add on extensions to the harmony, or surprise bass motion (ie. planning technique found in Debussy)
    • String Orchestra can feature much wider spacing than a choir. Our ears fill in the gaps. Doubling can be a really powerful device. Since your melody is so low and has the violins backed into a corner. The more you leave out the more you let the listeners mind fill in. The 5th is so close to the root, that this is the first interval that should be discarded.
    For example: Play this at the piano: (Make sure you play the bass stave an octave lower than written)

    The listener can easily pick up the implied chords are Eb-Gm-F-Eb (5th is omitted throughout)


    Screen Shot 2018-03-04 at 7.31.59 PM.png

    The principle is: You can never get away from the overtone series, or that the human mind perceives music in a certain way.
     
    T.j. Prinssen and Torsten Kamps like this.
  13. Two thumbs up, couldn't agree more.
    An example of Doug's point, demonstrated by a solo instrument, is the Prelude to Bach's Cello Suite No. 1. Not only does this arrangement of tones (root, 5th, 3rd) lie well on the instrument (bass sounds resonate, arrangement & tuning of strings), it strongly implies the underlying harmony. Here's a couple of 2-beat fragments from different parts of the prelude (ignore the bowings, and feel free to nit pick the analysis):
    cello voicings.png

    On the earlier quartet voicing question, Haydn is pretty old school, but you can easily see how an early master of the quartet voiced this cadence into a much bigger sound. This works in Dminor because of the tunings of the instruments (open D, A, G, and E strings - double stops with similar finger positions on adjacent strings, etc.).
    quartet double stops.png
     
  14. Believe me, all I want right now is going into the basics and do the things properly. That's the point of this thread.

    I'm curious to hear some examples of this planning technique, I tried to google it but no successfully.

    Very interesting remark about choir I'll keep it in a corner of my mind. If the 5th is the first interval to discard I did you suggest to remove the root doubling ? Because of the 1-5-3 inherent power ?

    Since the 3 notes of triads are played, which underlying harmony are you reffering to ?

    V-I cadence has a lot of example available everywhere. However I find generally the voicing more obvious. I struggle with more modern progression even the simplest one and I find examples nowhere, that's why I started this discussion.

    Thanks guys for your help. It gonna take me some time to diggest everything. I'll continue to load some string patches and wander around different chords progression.

    If you have some tips about the writing process for a strings sections only piece, I'm all ears. I just wanna try to make a properly written ~1 minute piece. Nothing complex but nothing as boring as block chords and melody.
     
  15. Sorry if this wasn't clear. I was bringing up that single, solo voice instruments can imply a harmony (vertical sonority) with a linear arrangement of notes (left to right on the page). So, voicing is both vertical space and movement from harmony to harmony. Also, the arrangement of the three notes, and selection of the specific pitches, best demonstrate those harmonies (on the cello).
    I'll find some more complex progressions, but this video is a helpful place to start.

    Important concepts are outlined several times throughout the video: spacing, countermelodies, etc.

    For planning/parallel voicings, it is all throughout impressionist and certain styles of jazz writing. Here's a tutorial on a jazz standard (So What) that has parallel voicing:
     

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